Date: 18/12/2011
Venue: A café near Broadway Market London, UK
Peter McDonald born Tokyo, lives and works in London.
More info here
Dan Wang: Can you tell me more about the idea of the transparent head in your paintings? Where did the idea come from?
Peter McDonald: Well, originally it started with the question 'What to paint?' I tried to find an interesting subject and I also made abstract paintings. I tried everything!
But after about a year, I decided to focus on telling stories, some narratives. I have always been interested in writing poems or stories from a young age.
One of the challenges was how to paint a figure. I tried copying figures from magazines, photos.... I was thinking how my figures could be.
As a basic idea I came across the idea of people on stage performing. In the same way that a musician on stage performs to an audience, as a painter I was trying to develop a language to communicate with my audience.
So I started to paint musicians on stage performing.
But then I began to question how I could paint the figure. I copied images from cd covers, magazines. But I found it a bit boring and limiting, always being tied to a photographic source material.
Then one day I was doing a painting like a 70's funk soul concert. There were two figures singing into one microphone. One figure was white the other black. Where the heads merged in the middle I painted grey.
I looked at it for a while and realised it was an interesting idea.
The image was symbolic and suggested communication between two people.
The more I pursued this idea the more I was interested.
The transparent heads took on any colour and shape. They took on different layers of meanings. Different shapes and colours suggested different feelings.
DW: I feel your works relate to urban life, which are about our experience in everyday life. I just wonder how you use these elements as references. Is it your invisible diary?
PM: Things that I have seen in my daily life give me the triggers. I am always thinking how I can work ideas into my paintings. The reason why I refer to everyday life is because the viewer can also relate to it. It can be someone talking in a restaurant or having a haircut.
DW: But you transformed general contents into your own representation. For instance, your pieces Teaching(2004), the images you presented are a bit different from our daily experience.
PM: My paintings are quite flat looking with a simple looking graphic language. There is not much shading. For me it is logical. The transparent heads can suggest depth on the picture plane. I don't need to create the illusion of depth by shading.
DW: Some of your works relate to memory like memory about particular theme, a person or an event. For example, the series of Matisse (2010) in his late age, about his strong spirit as a painter.
PM: There are different layers in the Matisse paintings. I've been painting him towards the end of his life. When he was in a wheelchair or in bed he was still making collages and drawing with a stick. I think one of the reasons I was drawn to the subject was the contrast between his frail physical body and the incredibly vibrant and colourful work full of vitality he made at the time.It was about the power of the human imagination.
DW: For me, your works are intelligible, and everyone can interpret by their different understanding, but what do you want to bring to the audiences?
PM: Well, I am making works for as many people as possible. I think there are different layers and depths to the work for all ages and interests to enjoy and think about.
I think humour is an important element in my work also. It helps to disarm a viewer so they can spend time with the image and let it 'speak'.
My paintings also suggest how everything is connected: the transparent heads become part of their environment and each other through the mixing of paint. Everything is a part of something else.
DW: As for Art on the Underground Project (2009), I felt the painting was about transition like objects, people and the whole environment. It implied that we were living in a transiting society. I just wonder how do you feel that the surrounding environment affects your works. How does the society relate to your artistic practice?
PM: I am really interested in language. I noticed our life is governed by systems and languages. Everything seems to be a system or a construction. When I sit on a bus and look outside at the street I see how our society is constructed through language. From the traffic lights to the alphabet, it is all language.
DW: There is a back and forth in artists’ works which is between collective and individual. On the one hand. When you make the works, you always consider who you are talking to and also make sure the right context. On the other hand, you have to concern about your own interest and approach, and do not comprise with accessibility. What is your dialogue between individual and collective?
PM: In my paintings I want to communicate visually with people. So I don't really think about changing the way I work for a public context. Hopefully what I find interesting other people find interesting too.
DW: But the language you use is quite approachable, referring to our everyday life.
PM: I think it is quite valuable. When someone can laugh or smile at my images it is a good way in to the painting. Then they can enjoy the aexperience and they are more likely to think about it.
DW: Last time, I discussed how to approach audience, especially in public realm with the Liverpool Biennale curator Lorenzo Fusi. From his experience, some works were banned. Actually the art works were not irritative or violent as we experienced in reality. They were not suitable for the context. In fact, it was not right place to show the works. Have you had this experience before? If you have a commission in the public place, what will you take into consideration?
PM: For me I won't approach this question so directly. I will do it in a more subtle way.
DW: What will your ideal Shanghai residency project (April 2011)? What do you really want to present?
PM: It would be putting lots of images together in a number of light boxes in the metro stations. The images will seem like fragments- different scenes of everyday life all shown together.
DW: Will you do the narration of these paintings?
PM: I will not narrate the 'stories' for these images. Instead, people will look at them and interpret for themselves. The different scenes from everyday life will allow multiple interpretations. People could see them as all connected or separate individual scenes, although there is a common visual language linking them all together.
They all belong to the same world.
Thursday, December 9, 2010
Sunday, November 7, 2010
利物浦双年展Lorenzo Fusi的访谈
(Scroll down for English)
汪单：信心中心是我参观今年利物浦双年展的第一个展场。印象很深刻！我记得2008年的双年展场地仅限于一些常规的艺术机构，比如利物浦泰特美术馆，Fact，Bluecoat等。而今年选择了Renshaw街道作为利物浦双年展的主会场。我想知道是怎么样的过程？
Lorenzo Fusi: 整个过程分好几个层面。每一种情况都是因地制宜得。在某些情况下，我们已经对空间有一个设想。但是我不是说根据场地来选择艺术家得。整个过程更像是一种引导而不是指令。整个主展场是到最后一刻才确定下来得。在两年前我刚到的时候，我就关注这座建筑。随着时间的推移，这个地方的雇主搬走了，大楼被摈弃了。（利物浦双年展）非常想用这个地方。但是和房产商经过了很复杂的一个沟通。比如说，我们在展览开幕前三周才签下了合约。所以我并不能完全设计整个会场。在展览中有一个很重要的部分是反思交易，其思想体现于整个大楼的底层，直接连接了视觉，心理学和窗外的街道。而这个想法是确认了场地之后才迸发得。所以很多想法是确认场地后而加强得。
单：我认为很多作品都是根据场地而产生得(Site-specific)。艺术家在做作品之前，对场地做了很多调研吗？
Lorenzo: 我现在对这一概念之艺术家根据场地而做作品是有一点抵制得。尽管这一概念在80和90年代盛行，但是我不认为现在还那么重要了。往往一件作品根据一个特定的语境而做却不能传达到其他的语境下。有时候作品被实际环境引导或是指示，比如建筑，空间或是一个特殊场合。作品符合一个特定的语境，但是我觉得不是唯一的艺术创作方法。正如我所说的那样，大部分的双年展场地到最后才核实。艺术家在准备作品前，走访了利物浦。我们（利物浦双年展）也提供了很多可能性的场地和相应的理论来支持艺术家的创作。在刚起步的时候，我们更注重一个理念，主题，方法和艺术家的反馈。然后，实施方案和最后完成作品是因场地而产生得。所以，策展思路在一个具体的语境中要明确。就实施而言，具体的选择是根据公共空间而订得。
单： 我还记得第一天到这里的时候，利物浦双年展主席Lewis Biggies给我做了一个简短的介绍。其中有一个 策展思路是在这样的环境下，模糊艺术作品和非艺术品。我发现这栋大楼仍保留了原来的内部装潢，比如破旧的墙纸，灯泡和插座。有时候在没有作品标签的情况下，我无法清晰的分辨出是艺术作品还是一件物品。
Lorenzo： 可能会在公共环境下，因为整个展览占据了这个空间。所以你会认为大部分的物品都是这个展览中的。但是你可以想到一个艺术项目，如果在墙外，街道，在公共空间里的元素或是规则让你觉得更真实，视觉上更兴奋。这些往往强于一件艺术作品。
单：那场地和艺术作品到底是什么关系？尤其是在这个展览下，又意味着什么？
Lorenzo: 我认为保留原有这座建筑的记忆，保留原有的精神。所以我们保留了原来的建筑内部装修。我认为这建筑物本身的魅力强于艺术作品。历史的沉淀和丰富的经历富有感情地在这栋楼里。重新装修这栋楼会是一个错误。
单：那艺术的介入在这建筑里体现了什么作用？艺术能激活这座建筑吗？
Lorenzo: 我认为艺术在这座建筑关闭之后体现了一个很重要的作用。这座建筑本来是利物浦的城市中心。而现在远离了人们的视线。利物浦双年展希望通过展览能让人们重新关注这座建筑。就政治决策而言，我们提出了一个观点：一个矛盾的情况是在城市新大楼建设的同时，老旧却仍可用的楼房被废弃了。所以在一个公共空间，你要尽量突出空间中每一个可及之处。因为它们是城市中的元素。因此，利物浦双年展在房产关闭之后体现了一个很重要的作用。这个地段变得越来越穷苦，社会活动远离了这个地方。有这块房产的人们至今还在挣扎中。
Reshaw街曾经代表利物浦的辉煌如今在自我破坏。企业商很高兴心利物浦双年展选择了此地做展览。这低迷的地段因为双年展的介入而被激活了。
单：利物浦双年展之后，这个地方会变成什么样了？
Lorenzo：很不幸的是这个不是双年展能决定得。首先，这座房产会从卖商手中重新利用。我猜想其中一个可能性是被作为商务利用。如果让我决定的话，我希望会是一个城市委员会。作为一个政治决定的话，我希望是一系列关于当代文化中心，像是艺术家工作室或是文化活动场所。因为它的地段是在城市的中心，离车站又很近。它可以是多功能的场地。但是双年展的介入其实体现了一个可实施的途径，它体现了不同的可能性。
单：利物浦双年展的策展思路让我联想到在今年夏天我在上海地铁策划的展览《海世盛楼》。我简明扼要地说一下，希望能听听你的意见。《海世盛楼》的策划主题是探寻在世博会期间的真实上海。展览的场地非常有挑战性。一方面，它是一个换乘通道，每天有10万的客流量。而且针对的群众是普通乘客。另一方面，在换乘通道里有四十七个灯箱，平时是展示商业海报得。现在灯箱片换成了艺术作品。其整个场地限制了艺术表现形式即二维的图像。我后来和地铁公司协商把作品介绍牌贴到了艺术作品的边上，为此让乘客们能进一步了解每一幅品。在某些程度上，我想通过介绍牌把艺术作品和普通的广告区分开来。
Lorenzo：我认为在普通情况下，当你在公共空间做展览的时候，你要对整个作品有信心，不要急着去解释作品。艺术作品应该能自我阐述观点。如果一件作品需要人为的解释，我不觉得是一件好作品。我认为公共艺术不需要太多的标注解释。应该是有一个其他的方法让更多人了解作品，比如网站或是传单。与此同时，这是一件很矛盾的事如果你想把教育放进公共领域，你又希望有更多的交流，为什么不选择美术馆或是画廊。在公共空间，你要面对的是到处矛盾的信息会迷惑艺术作品的呈现。
单：我的情况是当时没有很多展览信息。我有幸与一些乘客交流，他们发现这个空间有所改变，但是不知道到底哪里变了。也没有认为那些海报是一系列艺术作品。
Lorenzo：当你在操作展览时，最初你就要很清楚地意识到将要表达什么。从策展角度来谈，在最初开展项目时，就要预计到会遇到的情况和你能提供的最大限度的信息。很多方面是要在展览实施之前就考虑到得。如今，许多国家，地区已经高度信息程序化了，人们可以直接通过像网络那样渠道去了解他们想知道的资讯。但是在公共领域，我不觉得你可以做得到像那样直接传达你的艺术思想。没有一个引导性或结构完整的方法。美学，美感或是兴奋点在公共领域是有一定的限制得，你必须要妥协你所能用的语言。
单：在这样的情况下，你认为策展人有必要去引导观众吗？
Lorenzo：我觉得在个人的认识上应该是自由得。当然，你希望把自己所能表达的传递给别人。艺术家不应该只有一种方法去表达自己的作品，策展人也不应该用一种眼观去看待一件作品。它应该是多元得。就像你在写一篇论文，你把力所能及的表达出来，但这些仅仅是你的视角。我的想法却恰恰想法。如果是一件作品能开拓人们的视野，那会更有意思。甚至对作品的理解是你重来没有想到过得。这使作品的意义更为丰富了。在这个展览里，我最喜欢的是具有观众有不同的解释和体验的作品。有时这是一个推敲的过程。我想这样的方式比仅仅一种解读有趣得多。
单： 你怎么看审查制度得？在这边还存在吗？我之前和艺术家Peter Mcdonald 聊过这个问题。他曾经在伦敦地铁做过一个项目。他告诉我在实施前，策展人很清楚地告诉他什么样的画面是不可以放上去得。这有一个很清晰的标准。而我在做上海地铁项目时，审核制度是很模糊得。直到艺术家做出作品之后，我才知道是否能被展出。
Lorenzo：审查这个话题是很有趣但是有时候也很可怕。我个人有类似的经历。审查制度是有一定的模式得。于此同时，当你实施的时候，审核变得间接。尽管现在是民主得，目的都是有利于集体，有一个很好的许诺。但还是有很多碰撞得。甚至艺术形式上也有限制。给你一个例子，否则不是很清楚地知道我在讲什么。比如，艺术家Tala Madani在公共场所用BBC屏幕放映一系列的动画片。你知道BBC这样的国家广播台是有很严格的规章制度得，这些规章是根据保护儿童制定得。而这部动画片在我看来是非常讽刺和玩乐性得。里面有很强烈的信息，但这些不是我们所经历的那种暴力。在某种程度上，我期待着最为解放的审查制度。但是BBC不准放映这部动画片，理由是不适合儿童。所以就如我所说的，审查是有不同的评估和层面，并不是说什么是不能说得。而是你要发现新的方法去自由的表现。
单：如果我回归艺术创作，你认为策展人或是艺术家在做展览之前，必须要考虑到什么样的观众吗？
Lorenzo：要知道你是针对什么样的观众。这是很关键得！但是于此同时，我不认为这是绝对限制得。否则观众会理解偏差或是影响了作品的可能性。所以在委任项目或是做作品时，并不是只有唯一的方法。这有不同的方法去针对审核制度。在大量的限制中，如果我们服从严谨的标准，很容易就通过审核了。有时候机构不允许或是禁止某些作品，因为这些作品不适合某些特定的语境。在这样的情况下，策展人必须意识到这样的情况，并且避免无用的冲突，矛盾和不必要的压力。
Lorenzo Fusi, 是2010年利物浦双年展的国际策展人。直到2009年，他是意大利sms contemporanea in Siena 的策展人。
汪单：信心中心是我参观今年利物浦双年展的第一个展场。印象很深刻！我记得2008年的双年展场地仅限于一些常规的艺术机构，比如利物浦泰特美术馆，Fact，Bluecoat等。而今年选择了Renshaw街道作为利物浦双年展的主会场。我想知道是怎么样的过程？
Lorenzo Fusi: 整个过程分好几个层面。每一种情况都是因地制宜得。在某些情况下，我们已经对空间有一个设想。但是我不是说根据场地来选择艺术家得。整个过程更像是一种引导而不是指令。整个主展场是到最后一刻才确定下来得。在两年前我刚到的时候，我就关注这座建筑。随着时间的推移，这个地方的雇主搬走了，大楼被摈弃了。（利物浦双年展）非常想用这个地方。但是和房产商经过了很复杂的一个沟通。比如说，我们在展览开幕前三周才签下了合约。所以我并不能完全设计整个会场。在展览中有一个很重要的部分是反思交易，其思想体现于整个大楼的底层，直接连接了视觉，心理学和窗外的街道。而这个想法是确认了场地之后才迸发得。所以很多想法是确认场地后而加强得。
单：我认为很多作品都是根据场地而产生得(Site-specific)。艺术家在做作品之前，对场地做了很多调研吗？
Lorenzo: 我现在对这一概念之艺术家根据场地而做作品是有一点抵制得。尽管这一概念在80和90年代盛行，但是我不认为现在还那么重要了。往往一件作品根据一个特定的语境而做却不能传达到其他的语境下。有时候作品被实际环境引导或是指示，比如建筑，空间或是一个特殊场合。作品符合一个特定的语境，但是我觉得不是唯一的艺术创作方法。正如我所说的那样，大部分的双年展场地到最后才核实。艺术家在准备作品前，走访了利物浦。我们（利物浦双年展）也提供了很多可能性的场地和相应的理论来支持艺术家的创作。在刚起步的时候，我们更注重一个理念，主题，方法和艺术家的反馈。然后，实施方案和最后完成作品是因场地而产生得。所以，策展思路在一个具体的语境中要明确。就实施而言，具体的选择是根据公共空间而订得。
单： 我还记得第一天到这里的时候，利物浦双年展主席Lewis Biggies给我做了一个简短的介绍。其中有一个 策展思路是在这样的环境下，模糊艺术作品和非艺术品。我发现这栋大楼仍保留了原来的内部装潢，比如破旧的墙纸，灯泡和插座。有时候在没有作品标签的情况下，我无法清晰的分辨出是艺术作品还是一件物品。
Lorenzo： 可能会在公共环境下，因为整个展览占据了这个空间。所以你会认为大部分的物品都是这个展览中的。但是你可以想到一个艺术项目，如果在墙外，街道，在公共空间里的元素或是规则让你觉得更真实，视觉上更兴奋。这些往往强于一件艺术作品。
单：那场地和艺术作品到底是什么关系？尤其是在这个展览下，又意味着什么？
Lorenzo: 我认为保留原有这座建筑的记忆，保留原有的精神。所以我们保留了原来的建筑内部装修。我认为这建筑物本身的魅力强于艺术作品。历史的沉淀和丰富的经历富有感情地在这栋楼里。重新装修这栋楼会是一个错误。
单：那艺术的介入在这建筑里体现了什么作用？艺术能激活这座建筑吗？
Lorenzo: 我认为艺术在这座建筑关闭之后体现了一个很重要的作用。这座建筑本来是利物浦的城市中心。而现在远离了人们的视线。利物浦双年展希望通过展览能让人们重新关注这座建筑。就政治决策而言，我们提出了一个观点：一个矛盾的情况是在城市新大楼建设的同时，老旧却仍可用的楼房被废弃了。所以在一个公共空间，你要尽量突出空间中每一个可及之处。因为它们是城市中的元素。因此，利物浦双年展在房产关闭之后体现了一个很重要的作用。这个地段变得越来越穷苦，社会活动远离了这个地方。有这块房产的人们至今还在挣扎中。
Reshaw街曾经代表利物浦的辉煌如今在自我破坏。企业商很高兴心利物浦双年展选择了此地做展览。这低迷的地段因为双年展的介入而被激活了。
单：利物浦双年展之后，这个地方会变成什么样了？
Lorenzo：很不幸的是这个不是双年展能决定得。首先，这座房产会从卖商手中重新利用。我猜想其中一个可能性是被作为商务利用。如果让我决定的话，我希望会是一个城市委员会。作为一个政治决定的话，我希望是一系列关于当代文化中心，像是艺术家工作室或是文化活动场所。因为它的地段是在城市的中心，离车站又很近。它可以是多功能的场地。但是双年展的介入其实体现了一个可实施的途径，它体现了不同的可能性。
单：利物浦双年展的策展思路让我联想到在今年夏天我在上海地铁策划的展览《海世盛楼》。我简明扼要地说一下，希望能听听你的意见。《海世盛楼》的策划主题是探寻在世博会期间的真实上海。展览的场地非常有挑战性。一方面，它是一个换乘通道，每天有10万的客流量。而且针对的群众是普通乘客。另一方面，在换乘通道里有四十七个灯箱，平时是展示商业海报得。现在灯箱片换成了艺术作品。其整个场地限制了艺术表现形式即二维的图像。我后来和地铁公司协商把作品介绍牌贴到了艺术作品的边上，为此让乘客们能进一步了解每一幅品。在某些程度上，我想通过介绍牌把艺术作品和普通的广告区分开来。
Lorenzo：我认为在普通情况下，当你在公共空间做展览的时候，你要对整个作品有信心，不要急着去解释作品。艺术作品应该能自我阐述观点。如果一件作品需要人为的解释，我不觉得是一件好作品。我认为公共艺术不需要太多的标注解释。应该是有一个其他的方法让更多人了解作品，比如网站或是传单。与此同时，这是一件很矛盾的事如果你想把教育放进公共领域，你又希望有更多的交流，为什么不选择美术馆或是画廊。在公共空间，你要面对的是到处矛盾的信息会迷惑艺术作品的呈现。
单：我的情况是当时没有很多展览信息。我有幸与一些乘客交流，他们发现这个空间有所改变，但是不知道到底哪里变了。也没有认为那些海报是一系列艺术作品。
Lorenzo：当你在操作展览时，最初你就要很清楚地意识到将要表达什么。从策展角度来谈，在最初开展项目时，就要预计到会遇到的情况和你能提供的最大限度的信息。很多方面是要在展览实施之前就考虑到得。如今，许多国家，地区已经高度信息程序化了，人们可以直接通过像网络那样渠道去了解他们想知道的资讯。但是在公共领域，我不觉得你可以做得到像那样直接传达你的艺术思想。没有一个引导性或结构完整的方法。美学，美感或是兴奋点在公共领域是有一定的限制得，你必须要妥协你所能用的语言。
单：在这样的情况下，你认为策展人有必要去引导观众吗？
Lorenzo：我觉得在个人的认识上应该是自由得。当然，你希望把自己所能表达的传递给别人。艺术家不应该只有一种方法去表达自己的作品，策展人也不应该用一种眼观去看待一件作品。它应该是多元得。就像你在写一篇论文，你把力所能及的表达出来，但这些仅仅是你的视角。我的想法却恰恰想法。如果是一件作品能开拓人们的视野，那会更有意思。甚至对作品的理解是你重来没有想到过得。这使作品的意义更为丰富了。在这个展览里，我最喜欢的是具有观众有不同的解释和体验的作品。有时这是一个推敲的过程。我想这样的方式比仅仅一种解读有趣得多。
单： 你怎么看审查制度得？在这边还存在吗？我之前和艺术家Peter Mcdonald 聊过这个问题。他曾经在伦敦地铁做过一个项目。他告诉我在实施前，策展人很清楚地告诉他什么样的画面是不可以放上去得。这有一个很清晰的标准。而我在做上海地铁项目时，审核制度是很模糊得。直到艺术家做出作品之后，我才知道是否能被展出。
Lorenzo：审查这个话题是很有趣但是有时候也很可怕。我个人有类似的经历。审查制度是有一定的模式得。于此同时，当你实施的时候，审核变得间接。尽管现在是民主得，目的都是有利于集体，有一个很好的许诺。但还是有很多碰撞得。甚至艺术形式上也有限制。给你一个例子，否则不是很清楚地知道我在讲什么。比如，艺术家Tala Madani在公共场所用BBC屏幕放映一系列的动画片。你知道BBC这样的国家广播台是有很严格的规章制度得，这些规章是根据保护儿童制定得。而这部动画片在我看来是非常讽刺和玩乐性得。里面有很强烈的信息，但这些不是我们所经历的那种暴力。在某种程度上，我期待着最为解放的审查制度。但是BBC不准放映这部动画片，理由是不适合儿童。所以就如我所说的，审查是有不同的评估和层面，并不是说什么是不能说得。而是你要发现新的方法去自由的表现。
单：如果我回归艺术创作，你认为策展人或是艺术家在做展览之前，必须要考虑到什么样的观众吗？
Lorenzo：要知道你是针对什么样的观众。这是很关键得！但是于此同时，我不认为这是绝对限制得。否则观众会理解偏差或是影响了作品的可能性。所以在委任项目或是做作品时，并不是只有唯一的方法。这有不同的方法去针对审核制度。在大量的限制中，如果我们服从严谨的标准，很容易就通过审核了。有时候机构不允许或是禁止某些作品，因为这些作品不适合某些特定的语境。在这样的情况下，策展人必须意识到这样的情况，并且避免无用的冲突，矛盾和不必要的压力。
Lorenzo Fusi, 是2010年利物浦双年展的国际策展人。直到2009年，他是意大利sms contemporanea in Siena 的策展人。
Interview with Lorenzo Fusi, the international curator of the Liverpool Biennale
Venue: ground floor at Information Centre, 52 Renshaw Street, Liverpool,UK
Time: 3:30 pm 26th Oct 2010
Dan Wang: Information Centre was my first biennale venue where I visited this year. It was really impressive. Comparing to the Biennale in 2008, I remember there were a number of conventional institutions such as the Tate Liverpool, Bluecoat and Fact etc. But this time the Renshaw Street was chosen as one of the main places, I am curious of the process. How did it work? Which did it come across first, the venue or the names of the artists?
Lorenzo Fusi: It has been happening on the multi-level. Each one case was sort of individual circumstance. In some case, we have already had the idea of the space. But I won’t say the artists being chosen accordingly to the space. It was more like guiding through rather than dictating. The majority of the space became available until the last minute. As for this building, 52 the Renshaw Street, I had my eyes on it since I first arrived. After throughout time ( over two years ago), the place has been vacuum and deserted, and the enterprise here were moved somewhere. We were very keen on using the space.
But the negation was a bit difficult. For example, we did not sign the contract until three weeks before the opening. So I could not possibly design the exhibition around it. A great section was basically titled Re:thinking Trade. It happened throughout the ground floor and has direct relationship both vision and psychology with the street. It was pretty much influenced by the idea of having a space available. It was about the history of trading exchanging covers, and of course it was a compliment on this exhibition. So the idea started before, and the space came along afterwards. But some of ideas have become more powerful since the space was occupied.
D: I felt a lot of art works were embodied by the space and they were very site-specific. Did artists do the research of the space first before make the ideas? How was the process?
L: Now I was a bit resisted speaking about the word ‘site-specific’. Although the word was past notion throughout 80s and 90s, I don’t think it is so fundamentally important now. A lot of works have been done and said. I am also resisted works made lots of sense in one specific context were not translated sometimes if you did not replace them somewhere. Sometimes some works were suggested or dictated by actual environment. I mean like architecture, the site or circulation which you might take into consideration. That is I still consider as a bible form of site-specificity. To be site-specific in that meaning, it only has to make sense in the meaning to the specific site. But I do not think it is a good way to operate.
D: I felt a lot of art works were embodied by the space and they were very site-specific. Did artists do the research of the space first before make the ideas? How was the process?
L: Now I was a bit resisted speaking about the word ‘site-specific’. Although the word was past notion throughout 80s and 90s, I don’t think it is so fundamentally important now. A lot of works have been done and said. I am also resisted works made lots of sense in one specific context were not translated sometimes if you did not replace them somewhere. Sometimes some works were suggested or dictated by actual environment. I mean like architecture, the site or circulation which you might take into consideration. That is I still consider as a bible form of site-specificity. To be site-specific in that meaning, it only has to make sense in the meaning to the specific site. But I do not think it is a good way to operate.
So as I said, the majority of sites have not been defined until later on. Of course, these artists have visited Liverpool and we gave them many possibilities. There were many options like many sites of showing the works and theories being occupied. But nothing was really confirmed. So at the beginning of the process was more about suggesting the title, the theme, the approach and sensitivity of the artists. Then the way materialized and taken the final form can be said ‘site-specific’. The way you have chosen, it really needs to be crystallized in order to make sense in a specific environment. So certain chooses in terms of solutions were suggested to the public spaces.
D: I still remembered the first day I arrived, Lewis Biggies( the director of Liverpool Biennale) gave me a brief introduction of the space. He told one of the curatorial approaches was to make ambiguity between art works and non-art objects. I found the space still kept the original inner facility such as old wall paper, soakers and lamps. Sometimes I was confused to recognize whether it was an art work without clear labels.
L: You might find in the public realm. I mean this place. It becomes evident which is entirely occupied by this exhibition. So you expect the majority of elements, features or objects would belong to the exhibition. But if you think about the commissioning art in the public realm, outside the wall, in the streets or squares whatever, the same rules and regulations applied make you think in reality and became visual excitement, which are much stronger than the art works.
D: So what is the relationship between the site and the art, particularly in this show?
L: I think it is very important in particular this building. To keep the memory of what the building has been. To keep spirit in psychological way. That is why many memories have been persisted. Then I thought it was beautiful than any art works being represented. It is a history and fascinating, and experience has been sentimentally set in this building. It will be a mistake to cancel everything inside.
D: So what is the role of art intervention in the space? Can art reactive this space?
L: I think the role of art in this specific building. It has been the key after the enterprise closed down. The building has been empty for over years. It is interesting enough that this building was considered as the most central part of the city. Now it became invisible to the sight of the people. What the Liverpool Biennale did through the exhibition was to make sure people would become aware again of the building at the present. It is also pointing the figure in terms of political decision. So it is a contradiction that so many new buildings are being developed around the town when persisted buildings under use will not be used at all. So whenever you occupy a public space, you basically highlight accessibility to make as much as possible. It is a fabric of the city.
D: I still remembered the first day I arrived, Lewis Biggies( the director of Liverpool Biennale) gave me a brief introduction of the space. He told one of the curatorial approaches was to make ambiguity between art works and non-art objects. I found the space still kept the original inner facility such as old wall paper, soakers and lamps. Sometimes I was confused to recognize whether it was an art work without clear labels.
L: You might find in the public realm. I mean this place. It becomes evident which is entirely occupied by this exhibition. So you expect the majority of elements, features or objects would belong to the exhibition. But if you think about the commissioning art in the public realm, outside the wall, in the streets or squares whatever, the same rules and regulations applied make you think in reality and became visual excitement, which are much stronger than the art works.
D: So what is the relationship between the site and the art, particularly in this show?
L: I think it is very important in particular this building. To keep the memory of what the building has been. To keep spirit in psychological way. That is why many memories have been persisted. Then I thought it was beautiful than any art works being represented. It is a history and fascinating, and experience has been sentimentally set in this building. It will be a mistake to cancel everything inside.
D: So what is the role of art intervention in the space? Can art reactive this space?
L: I think the role of art in this specific building. It has been the key after the enterprise closed down. The building has been empty for over years. It is interesting enough that this building was considered as the most central part of the city. Now it became invisible to the sight of the people. What the Liverpool Biennale did through the exhibition was to make sure people would become aware again of the building at the present. It is also pointing the figure in terms of political decision. So it is a contradiction that so many new buildings are being developed around the town when persisted buildings under use will not be used at all. So whenever you occupy a public space, you basically highlight accessibility to make as much as possible. It is a fabric of the city.
In this respect, the Liverpool Biennale is very important. The enterprise was shot down one after the others. So the area became poorer and poorer in terms of human beings and activities were alienated. People who still have enterprise here are struggling because the Renshaw Street which once presented the highlight of Liverpool became ruining itself. People from the enterprise association are happy with what the Biennale did. The declining area has been activated and turned to be Biennale’s achievement.
D: What will this building happen after the biennale?
L: Well, unfortunately the decision will be managed by the state and returned to the company. The first side of the fact, it has been renewed interest in using the building from resellers. I assume one option in the future can be reoccupied by business. If it was my decision, it should be more like a city council. As a political decision, this building should be going through more consistent like quality house residencies or artists’ studios. It would become a cultural centre or presentational activities relating to contemporary culture because it is very central and close to the stations. It can be a multifunctional site. But the Biennale is marking a possible track which shows the possibility to do different things here.
D: The Biennale curatorial approach reminds me the show I curated in Shanghai Metro station in this summer. Please tell me your commend later. I tried summarizing the story: The exhibition Invisible City took place in a passage way of one Shanghai metro station and its aim was to explore the real shanghai in the period of the World Expo. The site was really changeling. On the one side, it opened to various groups of people, approximately 100,000 audiences passing through the place and majority were not specialized in art. One the other side, the site used to display advertisements was limited to the form of the works as a series of two-dimensional posters. At the end, I also put labels on these art works in order to give more information to the audiences. In some way, I tried to make clear border between art works and advertisements.
L: I think there are many different cases. In general, whenever you operate the public realm, you should be confident enough of consistency, do not feel urgent to put more labels. I think the art work should speak for itself. The art works which need too much explanation are not successful. So there will be other acceptance. I would say public art should not need labeling. There might be a platform where all information will be provided like website or leaflets. It will be other form to communicate or equal information. At the same time, it will be contradictory if you add too much educational approach in the public realm. If you want more communication, it should be in the gallery space. In the public realm, you have to face the fact that there are many conflicting messages around which will be delusive by something else.
D: In my case, there was no information on the website and passengers had no idea what was happening in this space. They knew something changed but they did not consider these posters as pieces of art works at the beginning.
L: Whenever you operate the content, you have to be aware at the beginning. What are you going to present at the early stage. From the curatorial view point, it is important to initiate the project, being aware of the situations and realize maximal information that you can provide. This information is going to be interrupted, not necessary as an art work. It is ordinary language and can communicate which are there. I think the consideration should take place before the project starts. Nowadays, there are many countries highly computerizing literature, which means incredibly simple way to provide more information like a website. Some people get more information from there. I do not think you can actually have both in the public realm. You can not have very guided and constructed way to provide information for your project. As for the aesthetics, the beauty and excitement in the public realm, there is a limit that you have to comprise the language you use.
D: In this circumstance, do you think is it necessary for the curator to navigate the audience?
L: I think it should be freedom in individual interpretation. Of course, you want to provide material of your thinking. That is your way to look at things. Artist should not have only one way to operate, even the curator should not be aware of only way to look at art. It should be diverse. Whenever you write an essay or a piece of paper, that is your own vision about it and you try to provide as much as inside that you have. But it is not necessary truth available about it. It is not only way to look at things. Actually I think the opposite way. It will be much more beautiful and more interesting to be open- minded art works. The interruption which you are not completely aware and never think about makes the art works richer and richer instead of becoming dryer and dryer because of the one way to read about it.
D: What will this building happen after the biennale?
L: Well, unfortunately the decision will be managed by the state and returned to the company. The first side of the fact, it has been renewed interest in using the building from resellers. I assume one option in the future can be reoccupied by business. If it was my decision, it should be more like a city council. As a political decision, this building should be going through more consistent like quality house residencies or artists’ studios. It would become a cultural centre or presentational activities relating to contemporary culture because it is very central and close to the stations. It can be a multifunctional site. But the Biennale is marking a possible track which shows the possibility to do different things here.
D: The Biennale curatorial approach reminds me the show I curated in Shanghai Metro station in this summer. Please tell me your commend later. I tried summarizing the story: The exhibition Invisible City took place in a passage way of one Shanghai metro station and its aim was to explore the real shanghai in the period of the World Expo. The site was really changeling. On the one side, it opened to various groups of people, approximately 100,000 audiences passing through the place and majority were not specialized in art. One the other side, the site used to display advertisements was limited to the form of the works as a series of two-dimensional posters. At the end, I also put labels on these art works in order to give more information to the audiences. In some way, I tried to make clear border between art works and advertisements.
L: I think there are many different cases. In general, whenever you operate the public realm, you should be confident enough of consistency, do not feel urgent to put more labels. I think the art work should speak for itself. The art works which need too much explanation are not successful. So there will be other acceptance. I would say public art should not need labeling. There might be a platform where all information will be provided like website or leaflets. It will be other form to communicate or equal information. At the same time, it will be contradictory if you add too much educational approach in the public realm. If you want more communication, it should be in the gallery space. In the public realm, you have to face the fact that there are many conflicting messages around which will be delusive by something else.
D: In my case, there was no information on the website and passengers had no idea what was happening in this space. They knew something changed but they did not consider these posters as pieces of art works at the beginning.
L: Whenever you operate the content, you have to be aware at the beginning. What are you going to present at the early stage. From the curatorial view point, it is important to initiate the project, being aware of the situations and realize maximal information that you can provide. This information is going to be interrupted, not necessary as an art work. It is ordinary language and can communicate which are there. I think the consideration should take place before the project starts. Nowadays, there are many countries highly computerizing literature, which means incredibly simple way to provide more information like a website. Some people get more information from there. I do not think you can actually have both in the public realm. You can not have very guided and constructed way to provide information for your project. As for the aesthetics, the beauty and excitement in the public realm, there is a limit that you have to comprise the language you use.
D: In this circumstance, do you think is it necessary for the curator to navigate the audience?
L: I think it should be freedom in individual interpretation. Of course, you want to provide material of your thinking. That is your way to look at things. Artist should not have only one way to operate, even the curator should not be aware of only way to look at art. It should be diverse. Whenever you write an essay or a piece of paper, that is your own vision about it and you try to provide as much as inside that you have. But it is not necessary truth available about it. It is not only way to look at things. Actually I think the opposite way. It will be much more beautiful and more interesting to be open- minded art works. The interruption which you are not completely aware and never think about makes the art works richer and richer instead of becoming dryer and dryer because of the one way to read about it.
In my experience here, the art works I like best have been read or experienced in many different ways. Sometimes it is very construing way. I think it is more interesting rather than a single way.
D: Let us talk about censorship. Does censorship exist in public realm here? I also discussed with the artist Peter Mcdonald before, and he had a project of Art on the Underground. He told me that curator gave him really clear requirement of what can be shown or can not be at the early stage. As for my show in Shanghai metro station, the boundary of censorship was blurry. I was not sure whether the art works could be presented until the artists finished producing.
L: Censorship is fascinating and scaring issue at the same time. I have an experience of myself for other process. There is a pattern of form of the censorship, and at the same time you do experience indirect censorship which basically happens in registration. Although it is demarcated, good for community and starts at good promises, it is anyhow has an impact what can not be said, and ever better in the form what can not be said.
D: Let us talk about censorship. Does censorship exist in public realm here? I also discussed with the artist Peter Mcdonald before, and he had a project of Art on the Underground. He told me that curator gave him really clear requirement of what can be shown or can not be at the early stage. As for my show in Shanghai metro station, the boundary of censorship was blurry. I was not sure whether the art works could be presented until the artists finished producing.
L: Censorship is fascinating and scaring issue at the same time. I have an experience of myself for other process. There is a pattern of form of the censorship, and at the same time you do experience indirect censorship which basically happens in registration. Although it is demarcated, good for community and starts at good promises, it is anyhow has an impact what can not be said, and ever better in the form what can not be said.
Give you an example; otherwise it will be a bit confusing. For instance, there is a series of animations by the artist Tala Madani in public area using BBC open air screen. You know BBC as a national broadcast company, has a straight regulation of which can be shown or not according to protection of children. The idea of this animation all I think is incredibly ironical and so playful. There are very strong massages, but they are not in particularly violent, comparing to our experience in regular cases. In a way, we expect most emancipated censorship. BBC did not want us to establish this work because their view point is not suitable for children. So what I mean, there are so many different valuation and sub-lines about censorship which do not necessarily mean you can not do. You have to invent ways which allows freedom for what you want to present.
D: If I go back to artistic practices, do you think the curator should consider the type of the audiences or the exception before making the show?
L: It is important to understand what audiences you are talking to. That is the key. At the same time, I do not think it should be absolute limitations. Otherwise you will deflect people and affect the possibilities. So it should not be only one principle to follow whenever you produce or commission art works. But at the same time, there are many different ways to exercise a form of censorship. At the majority of the limitations, we can easily pass if you follow the rules being structured. Sometimes institutions want to prohibit or inhibit the works because the context is not suitable for that certain circumstance. In this sense, curators should be aware of the situation and try avoiding useless conflicts or contracts or not necessarily stress.
Lorenzo Fusi, an International curator for the Liverpool Biennial 2010. Until April 2009 he was Curator of sms contemporanea in Siena (Italy) and until 2008 he was Chief Curator at the Palazzo delle Papesse.
Resource: http://www.acax.hu/index.
D: If I go back to artistic practices, do you think the curator should consider the type of the audiences or the exception before making the show?
L: It is important to understand what audiences you are talking to. That is the key. At the same time, I do not think it should be absolute limitations. Otherwise you will deflect people and affect the possibilities. So it should not be only one principle to follow whenever you produce or commission art works. But at the same time, there are many different ways to exercise a form of censorship. At the majority of the limitations, we can easily pass if you follow the rules being structured. Sometimes institutions want to prohibit or inhibit the works because the context is not suitable for that certain circumstance. In this sense, curators should be aware of the situation and try avoiding useless conflicts or contracts or not necessarily stress.
Lorenzo Fusi, an International curator for the Liverpool Biennial 2010. Until April 2009 he was Curator of sms contemporanea in Siena (Italy) and until 2008 he was Chief Curator at the Palazzo delle Papesse.
Resource: http://www.acax.hu/index.
Tuesday, October 19, 2010
Interview - Moganshan 120
The guard
V/A: How long have you lived in this area?
Z: 28 years.
V/A: What has happened in this area during the past 28 years?
Z: The Shanghai Flour Mill was here (now Shanghai Fuxin Flour Co., Ltd.), which was responsible for providing 10 districts and 10 country towns’ flour from Shanghai – a unique site with a long history. It was established in 1897, and the original equipment of the manufacturing sequence was imported from the United States. When it was rebuilt later, it introduced new grinding equipment from Buhler – a Swiss company. I was transferred to this factory from Chongming District in 1976 and I was responsible for the machinery in the Flour Mill. I participated in installing the new equipment of Buhler1. Their equipment is really efficient.
(Buhler is the global specialist and technology partner in the supply of plants and services for processing grain and food as well as for manufacturing advanced materials.)
V/A: What is the most significant historical aspect or most important phenomenon of this area as far as you can remember?
Z: It is the factory, which was the best in the whole area. Not only the previous warehouses with dry wall and 10 meters floor height were impressive, but also the whole old architecture in this area. They all looked just like the architecture on the bund.
V/A: What happened then?
Z: After the reforms and the opening-up policy, the Flour Mill moved in 2006. Actually, I already left the factory in 1982.
V/A: Why have you still been living here even after you’ve left?
Z: When I lived in my old house, it was too small for a place to bathe. At that time, I lived in a Tingzijian2 on a surface 12 square meters. I discussed the bath problem with the project leader of the factory. It’s too embarrassing if I came to the factory everyday just to take a bath. Then, he decided that I could be a guard here. As a result, I have been a guard here for three years.
V/A: How long has the factory been left in the present state of ruins?
Z: Since 2001, almost 10 years.
V/A: What experiences did you make within the past 10 years?
Z: Every one can enter this area to do graffiti. There were several doors, they were closed, now all are accessible and you can easily pass through.
V/A: What aspect of this area still triggers good feelings in you?
Z: Only the flour factory. I often think about how good it was, contrary to its present devastation.
V/A: Were all your neighbors workers in the flour factory?
Z: Most of them were.
V/A: We tried to find you last weekend, but we heard that you went to check out your new apartments. Also, what will happen to your relationship with your neighbors once you move?
Z: We have seldom contacted each other, since people here are narrow-minded and selfish, whether you are rich or poor.
V/A: Are you going to keep your job as a guard here?
Z: No, only until the new apartment is ready. My job is quite similar to living in a friend’s house and taking care of it.
V/A: Has your attitude towards this area changed since 1976?
(“Tingzijian” is the term for a small room located at the turn of the staircase within a building. It usually faces north, so the small room would be cold in winter and hot in summer. House owners used to rent them out for extra income. During the 1920s and 1930s many highly educated people and artists came to Shanghai to escape social and political unrest in other regions of the country. Many of them were single and a Tingzijian (fig 8) was a cheap, convenient form of accommodation for them. In these humble rooms, they studied arduously and wrote prodigiously. Many famous writers such as Lu Xun, Cai Yuanpei, Guo Moluo, Mao Dun, Ba Jing, Ding Ling and Feng Zikai have been strongly influenced by this lifestyle. Reflecting their individual experiences in Tingzijian and Shikumen, their work hence was dubbed “Tingzijian Literature”.)
Z: This was the best flour mill in the Far East. Previously, the daily car flow here was so busy, no less than on Nanjing Road. There were lots of beautiful architectures , even the worst building destroyed was better than in the M50’s now. Anyway, that’s the decision of the Shanghai textile holding group. Removal of the factory was no good for the workers, only the cadres benefited from it. Once the removal took place, the workers had to lay off, while the cadres got money immediately. I already have no feelings left for the factory. Actually, I just worked in the flour factory for six years. Formerly, I was engaged in machinery, and then I was going to do my own project outside, but unfortunately, I was sick and no more work has come up since then. My condition is worse than those of the strangers who have pensions… The warehouse was so pretty, the bucket warehouses stored 25000 tons of wheat, which was dragged by tugs to the factory for the further processing from the million ton boats on Wu Song Kou. At that time, the route from the Suzhou River to here was incredibly busy.
V/A: How many houses were there altogether?
Z: Too many. Originally, the factory covered an area of the 106 acres, ranging from warehouse No. 1 to warehouse No. 12, all were all made of wood. In 1981, someone said he could rebuild the warehouse. That’s a thing one cannot officially talk about, because it had to do with a high-level contact in bureaucracy. The foundation of the warehouse had been made by wooden pegs that were 24 meters long and sized 50 cm x 50 cm. Once they pulled out all the wooden pegs, the Shanghai TV station came in for an interview, which alerted the Municipal Bureau of Culture in Putuo District Shanghai. Only then, they realized that it was such a treasure in terms of warehouses. The 24 meters long wooden pegs were so beautiful, probably made by the British, and so stable even after the warehouse was blown up by directed blasts twice in 2003.
The reason for using wood, just as in the Park hotel (the former tallest building in Shanghai), was the resistance of wood that avoided any sinking. The previous techniques were really efficient, old-time things were really wonderful, for sure. So was the furniture used in the halls. Tables, chairs and lounge chairs inside were all redwood. If people could live there now, they would probably all be white-collars, while in the old days, they were the housekeepers. During the Cultural Revolution, stealing, looting, knocking off happened everywhere.
There was a family that lived upstairs and a family that lived downstairs in the house that I am living now, two families were the majordomo who were in charge of the factory. Workers were workers, while majordomo were majordomo. Workers lived there, while majordomo lived here. Workers lived in bungalows, while the majordomo lived in two storey houses.
A worker is a worker, a steward is a steward. Workers live there, the management lives here. The houses of workers were cottages, the houses of stewards were two storey houses, a Tingzijian with a studio, a front parlor and a rear parlor, all very comfortable. Because of the Cultural Revolution, people were squeezing into the houses. You occupied one room, I occupied another and then all things went wrong. The houses were as beautiful as those in Xintiandi. There was a lot of robbery and occupying of houses going on during the Cultural Revolution. The houses should have belonged to the factory, but during the Cultural Revolution, the factory delivered all the space to the local Real Estate Management Office. For example, you occupied a space, you registered your name on a paper to state which room you were living in and then that room belonged to you. From the perspective of the local Real Estate Management Office, the workers of the factory were “robbers” occupying and dividing space.
I got my house when I was transferred here by the Shanghai Municipal Bureau of Grain in 1976. At that time, I was going to marry, but my parents’ house was too small, so the factory assigned a house to me. The previous owner was a couple, that house was too small for them as they had two children, while I needed a house for marriage and that was just enough for a new couple. After the coordination, they moved to a newer, bigger one. On the other hand, if I hadn’t had a good relationship with the leaders in the factory, I wouldn’t have gotten the house. If you said you wanted to get married and required for a house, you could do nothing if your leaders answered you that there was no house available. Because I was responsible for the machinery, I had a good relationship with various leaders, I got a house in the end. In most cases, that was impossible.
I still remember the first time I came here. This factory was really beautiful, full of plants. But now… Anyway, cadres have cadres’ ideas, regardless of the workers’ needs. I definitely have emotions for this place. It’s also my own fault that I left the factory. However, even if I hadn’t left the factory, I would also have been laid off. The factory has moved to Longwu Road, near Xupu Bridge. Because the land prices here are too expensive. The Swiss equipments also have been moved there. Actually, Buhler’s boss had joked to take me to Switzerland.
V/A: How long have you lived in this area?
Z: 28 years.
V/A: What has happened in this area during the past 28 years?
Z: The Shanghai Flour Mill was here (now Shanghai Fuxin Flour Co., Ltd.), which was responsible for providing 10 districts and 10 country towns’ flour from Shanghai – a unique site with a long history. It was established in 1897, and the original equipment of the manufacturing sequence was imported from the United States. When it was rebuilt later, it introduced new grinding equipment from Buhler – a Swiss company. I was transferred to this factory from Chongming District in 1976 and I was responsible for the machinery in the Flour Mill. I participated in installing the new equipment of Buhler1. Their equipment is really efficient.
(Buhler is the global specialist and technology partner in the supply of plants and services for processing grain and food as well as for manufacturing advanced materials.)
V/A: What is the most significant historical aspect or most important phenomenon of this area as far as you can remember?
Z: It is the factory, which was the best in the whole area. Not only the previous warehouses with dry wall and 10 meters floor height were impressive, but also the whole old architecture in this area. They all looked just like the architecture on the bund.
V/A: What happened then?
Z: After the reforms and the opening-up policy, the Flour Mill moved in 2006. Actually, I already left the factory in 1982.
V/A: Why have you still been living here even after you’ve left?
Z: When I lived in my old house, it was too small for a place to bathe. At that time, I lived in a Tingzijian2 on a surface 12 square meters. I discussed the bath problem with the project leader of the factory. It’s too embarrassing if I came to the factory everyday just to take a bath. Then, he decided that I could be a guard here. As a result, I have been a guard here for three years.
V/A: How long has the factory been left in the present state of ruins?
Z: Since 2001, almost 10 years.
V/A: What experiences did you make within the past 10 years?
Z: Every one can enter this area to do graffiti. There were several doors, they were closed, now all are accessible and you can easily pass through.
V/A: What aspect of this area still triggers good feelings in you?
Z: Only the flour factory. I often think about how good it was, contrary to its present devastation.
V/A: Were all your neighbors workers in the flour factory?
Z: Most of them were.
V/A: We tried to find you last weekend, but we heard that you went to check out your new apartments. Also, what will happen to your relationship with your neighbors once you move?
Z: We have seldom contacted each other, since people here are narrow-minded and selfish, whether you are rich or poor.
V/A: Are you going to keep your job as a guard here?
Z: No, only until the new apartment is ready. My job is quite similar to living in a friend’s house and taking care of it.
V/A: Has your attitude towards this area changed since 1976?
(“Tingzijian” is the term for a small room located at the turn of the staircase within a building. It usually faces north, so the small room would be cold in winter and hot in summer. House owners used to rent them out for extra income. During the 1920s and 1930s many highly educated people and artists came to Shanghai to escape social and political unrest in other regions of the country. Many of them were single and a Tingzijian (fig 8) was a cheap, convenient form of accommodation for them. In these humble rooms, they studied arduously and wrote prodigiously. Many famous writers such as Lu Xun, Cai Yuanpei, Guo Moluo, Mao Dun, Ba Jing, Ding Ling and Feng Zikai have been strongly influenced by this lifestyle. Reflecting their individual experiences in Tingzijian and Shikumen, their work hence was dubbed “Tingzijian Literature”.)
Z: This was the best flour mill in the Far East. Previously, the daily car flow here was so busy, no less than on Nanjing Road. There were lots of beautiful architectures , even the worst building destroyed was better than in the M50’s now. Anyway, that’s the decision of the Shanghai textile holding group. Removal of the factory was no good for the workers, only the cadres benefited from it. Once the removal took place, the workers had to lay off, while the cadres got money immediately. I already have no feelings left for the factory. Actually, I just worked in the flour factory for six years. Formerly, I was engaged in machinery, and then I was going to do my own project outside, but unfortunately, I was sick and no more work has come up since then. My condition is worse than those of the strangers who have pensions… The warehouse was so pretty, the bucket warehouses stored 25000 tons of wheat, which was dragged by tugs to the factory for the further processing from the million ton boats on Wu Song Kou. At that time, the route from the Suzhou River to here was incredibly busy.
V/A: How many houses were there altogether?
Z: Too many. Originally, the factory covered an area of the 106 acres, ranging from warehouse No. 1 to warehouse No. 12, all were all made of wood. In 1981, someone said he could rebuild the warehouse. That’s a thing one cannot officially talk about, because it had to do with a high-level contact in bureaucracy. The foundation of the warehouse had been made by wooden pegs that were 24 meters long and sized 50 cm x 50 cm. Once they pulled out all the wooden pegs, the Shanghai TV station came in for an interview, which alerted the Municipal Bureau of Culture in Putuo District Shanghai. Only then, they realized that it was such a treasure in terms of warehouses. The 24 meters long wooden pegs were so beautiful, probably made by the British, and so stable even after the warehouse was blown up by directed blasts twice in 2003.
The reason for using wood, just as in the Park hotel (the former tallest building in Shanghai), was the resistance of wood that avoided any sinking. The previous techniques were really efficient, old-time things were really wonderful, for sure. So was the furniture used in the halls. Tables, chairs and lounge chairs inside were all redwood. If people could live there now, they would probably all be white-collars, while in the old days, they were the housekeepers. During the Cultural Revolution, stealing, looting, knocking off happened everywhere.
There was a family that lived upstairs and a family that lived downstairs in the house that I am living now, two families were the majordomo who were in charge of the factory. Workers were workers, while majordomo were majordomo. Workers lived there, while majordomo lived here. Workers lived in bungalows, while the majordomo lived in two storey houses.
A worker is a worker, a steward is a steward. Workers live there, the management lives here. The houses of workers were cottages, the houses of stewards were two storey houses, a Tingzijian with a studio, a front parlor and a rear parlor, all very comfortable. Because of the Cultural Revolution, people were squeezing into the houses. You occupied one room, I occupied another and then all things went wrong. The houses were as beautiful as those in Xintiandi. There was a lot of robbery and occupying of houses going on during the Cultural Revolution. The houses should have belonged to the factory, but during the Cultural Revolution, the factory delivered all the space to the local Real Estate Management Office. For example, you occupied a space, you registered your name on a paper to state which room you were living in and then that room belonged to you. From the perspective of the local Real Estate Management Office, the workers of the factory were “robbers” occupying and dividing space.
I got my house when I was transferred here by the Shanghai Municipal Bureau of Grain in 1976. At that time, I was going to marry, but my parents’ house was too small, so the factory assigned a house to me. The previous owner was a couple, that house was too small for them as they had two children, while I needed a house for marriage and that was just enough for a new couple. After the coordination, they moved to a newer, bigger one. On the other hand, if I hadn’t had a good relationship with the leaders in the factory, I wouldn’t have gotten the house. If you said you wanted to get married and required for a house, you could do nothing if your leaders answered you that there was no house available. Because I was responsible for the machinery, I had a good relationship with various leaders, I got a house in the end. In most cases, that was impossible.
I still remember the first time I came here. This factory was really beautiful, full of plants. But now… Anyway, cadres have cadres’ ideas, regardless of the workers’ needs. I definitely have emotions for this place. It’s also my own fault that I left the factory. However, even if I hadn’t left the factory, I would also have been laid off. The factory has moved to Longwu Road, near Xupu Bridge. Because the land prices here are too expensive. The Swiss equipments also have been moved there. Actually, Buhler’s boss had joked to take me to Switzerland.
But I know that a joke is just joke…
Interview - Moganshan 120 | The guard
Interview - Moganshan 120
The guard
V/A: How long have you lived in this area?
Z: 28 years.
V/A: What has happened in this area during the past 28 years?
Z: The Shanghai Flour Mill was here (now Shanghai Fuxin Flour Co., Ltd.), which was responsible for providing 10 districts and 10 country towns’ flour from Shanghai – a unique site with a long history. It was established in 1897, and the original equipment of the manufacturing sequence was imported from the United States. When it was rebuilt later, it introduced new grinding equipment from Buhler – a Swiss company. I was transferred to this factory from Chongming District in 1976 and I was responsible for the machinery in the Flour Mill. I participated in installing the new equipment of Buhler1. Their equipment is really efficient.
(Buhler is the global specialist and technology partner in the supply of plants and services for processing grain and food as well as for manufacturing advanced materials.)
V/A: What is the most significant historical aspect or most important phenomenon of this area as far as you can remember?
Z: It is the factory, which was the best in the whole area. Not only the previous warehouses with dry wall and 10 meters floor height were impressive, but also the whole old architecture in this area. They all looked just like the architecture on the bund.
V/A: What happened then?
Z: After the reforms and the opening-up policy, the Flour Mill moved in 2006. Actually, I already left the factory in 1982.
V/A: Why have you still been living here even after you’ve left?
Z: When I lived in my old house, it was too small for a place to bathe. At that time, I lived in a Tingzijian2 on a surface 12 square meters. I discussed the bath problem with the project leader of the factory. It’s too embarrassing if I came to the factory everyday just to take a bath. Then, he decided that I could be a guard here. As a result, I have been a guard here for three years.
V/A: How long has the factory been left in the present state of ruins?
Z: Since 2001, almost 10 years.
V/A: What experiences did you make within the past 10 years?
Z: Every one can enter this area to do graffiti. There were several doors, they were closed, now all are accessible and you can easily pass through.
V/A: What aspect of this area still triggers good feelings in you?
Z: Only the flour factory. I often think about how good it was, contrary to its present devastation.
V/A: Were all your neighbors workers in the flour factory?
Z: Most of them were.
V/A: We tried to find you last weekend, but we heard that you went to check out your new apartments. Also, what will happen to your relationship with your neighbors once you move?
Z: We have seldom contacted each other, since people here are narrow-minded and selfish, whether you are rich or poor.
V/A: Are you going to keep your job as a guard here?
Z: No, only until the new apartment is ready. My job is quite similar to living in a friend’s house and taking care of it.
V/A: Has your attitude towards this area changed since 1976?
(“Tingzijian” is the term for a small room located at the turn of the staircase within a building. It usually faces north, so the small room would be cold in winter and hot in summer. House owners used to rent them out for extra income. During the 1920s and 1930s many highly educated people and artists came to Shanghai to escape social and political unrest in other regions of the country. Many of them were single and a Tingzijian (fig 8) was a cheap, convenient form of accommodation for them. In these humble rooms, they studied arduously and wrote prodigiously. Many famous writers such as Lu Xun, Cai Yuanpei, Guo Moluo, Mao Dun, Ba Jing, Ding Ling and Feng Zikai have been strongly influenced by this lifestyle. Reflecting their individual experiences in Tingzijian and Shikumen, their work hence was dubbed “Tingzijian Literature”.)
Z: This was the best flour mill in the Far East. Previously, the daily car flow here was so busy, no less than on Nanjing Road. There were lots of beautiful architectures , even the worst building destroyed was better than in the M50’s now. Anyway, that’s the decision of the Shanghai textile holding group. Removal of the factory was no good for the workers, only the cadres benefited from it. Once the removal took place, the workers had to lay off, while the cadres got money immediately. I already have no feelings left for the factory. Actually, I just worked in the flour factory for six years. Formerly, I was engaged in machinery, and then I was going to do my own project outside, but unfortunately, I was sick and no more work has come up since then. My condition is worse than those of the strangers who have pensions… The warehouse was so pretty, the bucket warehouses stored 25000 tons of wheat, which was dragged by tugs to the factory for the further processing from the million ton boats on Wu Song Kou. At that time, the route from the Suzhou River to here was incredibly busy.
V/A: How many houses were there altogether?
Z: Too many. Originally, the factory covered an area of the 106 acres, ranging from warehouse No. 1 to warehouse No. 12, all were all made of wood. In 1981, someone said he could rebuild the warehouse. That’s a thing one cannot officially talk about, because it had to do with a high-level contact in bureaucracy. The foundation of the warehouse had been made by wooden pegs that were 24 meters long and sized 50 cm x 50 cm. Once they pulled out all the wooden pegs, the Shanghai TV station came in for an interview, which alerted the Municipal Bureau of Culture in Putuo District Shanghai. Only then, they realized that it was such a treasure in terms of warehouses. The 24 meters long wooden pegs were so beautiful, probably made by the British, and so stable even after the warehouse was blown up by directed blasts twice in 2003.
The reason for using wood, just as in the Park hotel (the former tallest building in Shanghai), was the resistance of wood that avoided any sinking. The previous techniques were really efficient, old-time things were really wonderful, for sure. So was the furniture used in the halls. Tables, chairs and lounge chairs inside were all redwood. If people could live there now, they would probably all be white-collars, while in the old days, they were the housekeepers. During the Cultural Revolution, stealing, looting, knocking off happened everywhere.
There was a family that lived upstairs and a family that lived downstairs in the house that I am living now, two families were the majordomo who were in charge of the factory. Workers were workers, while majordomo were majordomo. Workers lived there, while majordomo lived here. Workers lived in bungalows, while the majordomo lived in two storey houses.
A worker is a worker, a steward is a steward. Workers live there, the management lives here. The houses of workers were cottages, the houses of stewards were two storey houses, a Tingzijian with a studio, a front parlor and a rear parlor, all very comfortable. Because of the Cultural Revolution, people were squeezing into the houses. You occupied one room, I occupied another and then all things went wrong. The houses were as beautiful as those in Xintiandi. There was a lot of robbery and occupying of houses going on during the Cultural Revolution. The houses should have belonged to the factory, but during the Cultural Revolution, the factory delivered all the space to the local Real Estate Management Office. For example, you occupied a space, you registered your name on a paper to state which room you were living in and then that room belonged to you. From the perspective of the local Real Estate Management Office, the workers of the factory were “robbers” occupying and dividing space.
I got my house when I was transferred here by the Shanghai Municipal Bureau of Grain in 1976. At that time, I was going to marry, but my parents’ house was too small, so the factory assigned a house to me. The previous owner was a couple, that house was too small for them as they had two children, while I needed a house for marriage and that was just enough for a new couple. After the coordination, they moved to a newer, bigger one. On the other hand, if I hadn’t had a good relationship with the leaders in the factory, I wouldn’t have gotten the house. If you said you wanted to get married and required for a house, you could do nothing if your leaders answered you that there was no house available. Because I was responsible for the machinery, I had a good relationship with various leaders, I got a house in the end. In most cases, that was impossible.
I still remember the first time I came here. This factory was really beautiful, full of plants. But now… Anyway, cadres have cadres’ ideas, regardless of the workers’ needs. I definitely have emotions for this place. It’s also my own fault that I left the factory. However, even if I hadn’t left the factory, I would also have been laid off. The factory has moved to Longwu Road, near Xupu Bridge. Because the land prices here are too expensive. The Swiss equipments also have been moved there. Actually, Buhler’s boss had joked to take me to Switzerland. But I know that a joke is just joke…
Tuesday, August 3, 2010
What Cannot be Said
Collaboration between Fei Art Center and Vision Forum
What Cannot Be Said brings together 4 young artists and curators to create a series of interviews that discuss the limits of what can be expressed – in words, in art or in science. It develops themes that are at the core of Vision Forum’s activities such as:
What are the boundaries of human knowledge? What role should art play? How can art be more visionary and give more to its audience? The project also addresses issues as, how do you deal with experiences and phenomena that cannot be expressed or explained.
What Cannot Be Said addresses questions related to censorship, what is the difference between an inner censorship and an exteriorly imposed silence? How can knowledge be safeguarded and passed on without becoming instruments of oppression?
What Cannot Be Said is firmly grounded in the culture of visual art and also approach the boundaries of what art can address, express and how it functions differently from other genres and sciences.
In keeping with the Vision Forum spirit the participants are invited to question academic forms of writing and also invite non-art professionals to be interviewed to ensure an interdisciplinary approach and to safeguard that the dialogue does not become to introverted, but deals with real issues in life.
Wang Dan
Angelo Romano
Liu Xinyi
Susanne Ewerlöf
The project will be published on the Vision Forum and FCAC websites in parallel in English and Chinese.
For more info about the project:
http://visionforumshanghai.blogspot.com/
http://www.feiartcenter.com/en/archive.asp/
What Cannot Be Said brings together 4 young artists and curators to create a series of interviews that discuss the limits of what can be expressed – in words, in art or in science. It develops themes that are at the core of Vision Forum’s activities such as:
What are the boundaries of human knowledge? What role should art play? How can art be more visionary and give more to its audience? The project also addresses issues as, how do you deal with experiences and phenomena that cannot be expressed or explained.
What Cannot Be Said addresses questions related to censorship, what is the difference between an inner censorship and an exteriorly imposed silence? How can knowledge be safeguarded and passed on without becoming instruments of oppression?
What Cannot Be Said is firmly grounded in the culture of visual art and also approach the boundaries of what art can address, express and how it functions differently from other genres and sciences.
In keeping with the Vision Forum spirit the participants are invited to question academic forms of writing and also invite non-art professionals to be interviewed to ensure an interdisciplinary approach and to safeguard that the dialogue does not become to introverted, but deals with real issues in life.
Wang Dan
Angelo Romano
Liu Xinyi
Susanne Ewerlöf
The project will be published on the Vision Forum and FCAC websites in parallel in English and Chinese.
For more info about the project:
http://visionforumshanghai.blogspot.com/
http://www.feiartcenter.com/en/archive.asp/
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